Comments on: “In and of Itself” http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/definitions/in-and-of-itself-usage/ The #1 Grammar & Punctuation Resource on the Internet! Tue, 01 Jan 2013 00:14:01 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Bruce http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/definitions/in-and-of-itself-usage/#comment-10099 Bruce Fri, 27 Jan 2012 19:58:51 +0000 http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/?p=22#comment-10099 I hate the phrase, "in and of itself." It's banal and pretentious. I hate the phrase, “in and of itself.” It’s banal and pretentious.

]]> By: Rob http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/definitions/in-and-of-itself-usage/#comment-8050 Rob Tue, 22 Nov 2011 16:55:47 +0000 http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/?p=22#comment-8050 It is synonymous with the word ‘exclusively’. It is synonymous with the word ‘exclusively’.

]]> By: justin http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/definitions/in-and-of-itself-usage/#comment-5957 justin Sat, 30 Jul 2011 14:37:13 +0000 http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/?p=22#comment-5957 it is not a filler phrase. it insinuates that as a stand alone whatever given thing would not be a factor but in context it is. such as - "the birds in and of themselves are lovely, but the noise at dusk is terrible." Not.Filler. it is not a filler phrase. it insinuates that as a stand alone whatever given thing would not be a factor but in context it is. such as – “the birds in and of themselves are lovely, but the noise at dusk is terrible.” Not.Filler.

]]> By: Sharon http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/definitions/in-and-of-itself-usage/#comment-5824 Sharon Mon, 20 Jun 2011 01:29:21 +0000 http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/?p=22#comment-5824 Thanks for the discussion. Hats off to you, Barry. I came to this site because I am writing a formal paper and want to know what is "correct." I agree with Jane, that in the privacy of my own little world I can speak as colloquially as I please. For example, I spent almost a decade in the Midwest, and I still find the phrase, y'all, to be very useful. I just don't use it in my professional life. Thanks for the discussion. Hats off to you, Barry. I came to this site because I am writing a formal paper and want to know what is “correct.” I agree with Jane, that in the privacy of my own little world I can speak as colloquially as I please. For example, I spent almost a decade in the Midwest, and I still find the phrase, y’all, to be very useful. I just don’t use it in my professional life.

]]> By: Jane http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/definitions/in-and-of-itself-usage/#comment-5869 Jane Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:34:06 +0000 http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/?p=22#comment-5869 Actually, the word "running" in the case of your examples is a noun, not a verb. I do, however, agree that using "running alone" could be confusing for the reader. I think that your first example sounds best. Actually, the word “running” in the case of your examples is a noun, not a verb. I do, however, agree that using “running alone” could be confusing for the reader. I think that your first example sounds best.

]]> By: Brittany http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/definitions/in-and-of-itself-usage/#comment-5823 Brittany Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:42:02 +0000 http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/?p=22#comment-5823 I'm currently writing a quick blurb about a few things that agitate me about NC-17 films. (Not intending to be crude or anything.) I just listed a few things that should be changed. One of the things I listed was something that, in and of itself, can be completely off putting. I think "by itself" shouldn't be used in this case because the thing being described isn't a noun but a verb. Example: There are many things that can be done to keep the heart healthy. (1) Running, in and of itself, can cause a lowered heart rate. (2) Running, by itself, can cause a lowered heart rate. "Running alone" shouldn't be used in this sentence due to multiple meanings of the word "alone." I’m currently writing a quick blurb about a few things that agitate me about NC-17 films. (Not intending to be crude or anything.) I just listed a few things that should be changed. One of the things I listed was something that, in and of itself, can be completely off putting. I think “by itself” shouldn’t be used in this case because the thing being described isn’t a noun but a verb.

Example:

There are many things that can be done to keep the heart healthy.

(1) Running, in and of itself, can cause a lowered heart rate.
(2) Running, by itself, can cause a lowered heart rate.

“Running alone” shouldn’t be used in this sentence due to multiple meanings of the word “alone.”

]]> By: Jane http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/definitions/in-and-of-itself-usage/#comment-5873 Jane Wed, 15 Jun 2011 01:55:41 +0000 http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/?p=22#comment-5873 You make some interesting points; thank you for your comments. However, I am not sure that I would write, "The weather of itself was not the cause of traffic delays." It sounds awkward. You make some interesting points; thank you for your comments. However, I am not sure that I would write, “The weather of itself was not the cause of traffic delays.” It sounds awkward.

]]> By: Seagraves http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/definitions/in-and-of-itself-usage/#comment-5809 Seagraves Tue, 14 Jun 2011 01:27:38 +0000 http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/?p=22#comment-5809 The words "in" and "of" have real, actual meaning in English and must be used accordingly if they are to be used correctly. "In" is a preposition which is used to indicate inclusion within limits (of space, place, time, or perhaps some abstract thing as in "in the news" or "in trade"). "Of" is a preposition which is used to indicate distance or separation ("It's a quarter OF three" to indicate 2:45, or "We're within 3 steps OF the cliff"), derivation or source ("part OF a whole" or "friend OF mine"), or cause or reason (to faint OF exhaustion). Therefore, if you really mean to say that "The weather was not, within the limits of itself (or within the limits of what it is by nature) the cause of the traffic delays," then use "in itself." If you mean to say that "The weather was not, due to its own causes (or due to those causes of which the weather would inherently be the source), the cause of the traffic delays," then use "of itself." If you really, truly want to express both meanings, then it is technically correct to use "in and of itself," but be aware that this is an overused phrase (that is, cliche'), so even though it may be correct, it will still almost always be poor style. Normally, a writer or speaker really means only one or the other (either "in" or "of"), and not both. These are subtle distinctions, but if you understand the actual meanings of each preposition, you can make an intelligent choice in your phrasing without using tired, annoying expressions. Also, because of the subtlety in the meanings, in some cases the use of either "in" or "of" would work equally well. In those cases, using both prepositions would be redundant, so just choose the one that seems to express your true meaning most clearly. The words “in” and “of” have real, actual meaning in English and must be used accordingly if they are to be used correctly. “In” is a preposition which is used to indicate inclusion within limits (of space, place, time, or perhaps some abstract thing as in “in the news” or “in trade”). “Of” is a preposition which is used to indicate distance or separation (“It’s a quarter OF three” to indicate 2:45, or “We’re within 3 steps OF the cliff”), derivation or source (“part OF a whole” or “friend OF mine”), or cause or reason (to faint OF exhaustion).

Therefore, if you really mean to say that “The weather was not, within the limits of itself (or within the limits of what it is by nature) the cause of the traffic delays,” then use “in itself.” If you mean to say that “The weather was not, due to its own causes (or due to those causes of which the weather would inherently be the source), the cause of the traffic delays,” then use “of itself.” If you really, truly want to express both meanings, then it is technically correct to use “in and of itself,” but be aware that this is an overused phrase (that is, cliche’), so even though it may be correct, it will still almost always be poor style. Normally, a writer or speaker really means only one or the other (either “in” or “of”), and not both.

These are subtle distinctions, but if you understand the actual meanings of each preposition, you can make an intelligent choice in your phrasing without using tired, annoying expressions. Also, because of the subtlety in the meanings, in some cases the use of either “in” or “of” would work equally well. In those cases, using both prepositions would be redundant, so just choose the one that seems to express your true meaning most clearly.

]]> By: Jane http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/definitions/in-and-of-itself-usage/#comment-5835 Jane Wed, 01 Jun 2011 20:16:04 +0000 http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/?p=22#comment-5835 "Quick and to the point" also now applies to text messages! “Quick and to the point” also now applies to text messages!

]]> By: Morghan http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/definitions/in-and-of-itself-usage/#comment-5736 Morghan Tue, 31 May 2011 17:15:55 +0000 http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/?p=22#comment-5736 All the talk of streamlining the language gives me a cringe with thoughts of newspeak dancing in my head. The flourishes are what makes writing great, quick and to the point is for technical manuals. All the talk of streamlining the language gives me a cringe with thoughts of newspeak dancing in my head.

The flourishes are what makes writing great, quick and to the point is for technical manuals.

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